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Steinkrunk
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PostSubject: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:18 pm

So there's been some talk on the PB thread of trail braking and it got me thinking. There should be a thread to discuss driving techniques and things that work or don't work on the touge.

Also maybe setup secrets that help get a fast car faster. I recently swapped out the race transmission in my Z to the sport trans and I'm running consistent 39's now. I didn't loose any time in my 0-60 or 0-100, I actually gained some time since with the extra PI I threw on lighter wheels and upgraded the driveshaft.

So share your secrets(or don't lol) and make everybody faster!!

And here's a little tuner I use to get base tunes in my cars, then you can read tire temps for camber/toe changes and use benchmark to get 0-60/100(trans) and 60/100-0(brakes) as low as possible.

Forza Tuner

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lBrawnyemperoRl
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:09 pm

Good idea been thinkin about a thread like this myself when i mentioned the sudo-style counterattack
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MiNd
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:17 pm

When you say secret setups, The setup is custom to the driver, I have a base tune that I've memorized and adjust to the feeling of the car.

A guess a secret that isn't really "secret" but is usually overlooked is the build. Honestly for a while I thought race full handling was the only way to go, Wilson shattered what I thought was standard by building many cars with wacky builds and beating me in them lol

For the gearing, I usually run the mountain as normally would, when I hit the long straight is where I gauge it. I try to just hit redline in 6th gear as I hit the braking zone, then tweak the individual gears from there. My theory is that I'm using all of the gears / revs.

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KraZe
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:41 pm

The Forza Tuner link is cool! But those tunes seem to be for circuits exclusively. The spring rates and roll bar settings they tell you are very stiff, perhaps TOO stiff for Fujimi Kaido.

As for racing techniques, left-foot braking and heel-toe downshifting are a given, since I use a wheel I need to include steering techniques to my assortment of skills as well, for example I cannot steer too much in the corners otherwise I overuse the front tires' grip and understeer so I've learned to minimize my steering (God Hand style lol).

I've learned 2 tricks for racing the uphill faster, they've cut my time down by about 2 seconds.
The first one is reducing speed by NOT letting go of the gas. On some corners where you need to slow down a little (those where you don't know if you should tap the brakes a little or let off the gas) I keep my foot on the gas and let my revs climb. With the exception of VTEC Hondas, most cars (especially turbo cars) lose a lot of power as they reach the redline. I use this to my advantage and allow my drop in horsepower to reduce my acceleration and get me around the corner at full throttle.
The second one is turning in high speed corners by downshifting. At 100+mph corners, if you downshift without hitting the brakes or letting go of the gas, the revs climb and cause your rear tires (this works for RWDs only) to slip a little. You can use this to your advantage and use that slip to angle and rotate your car around high speed corners at speeds where simply turning your front tires would cause your car to understeer.

There's my 2 cents on driving techniques, I have more but it takes a while to write lol

tl;dr THE GAME

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skitchin
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:58 pm

This is going to sound arrogant/egotistical, but... As someone who's written his own tuning calculator - pretty much everything out there right now is shit. Biggest thing that sets my calculator apart from the others is that rather than using magic numbers to come up with the values, it takes one tune and adapts it to different cars, based on the change in weight and distribution. If anyone wants me to try transplanting some tunes for them, let me know! I've thought about releasing the calculator to the general public, but the current version is written in html+javascript, which means the code is openly viewable, and I know it'd be just a matter of time before someone tried to turn a profit from all of my hard work.

And for what it's worth, with some basic math you can calculate your own spring rates, which will help maintain some consistency between tunes. Say you've got a car that weighs 2200lbs and has a 51/49 split. 2200 * .51 = 1122lbs in the front. So say your front springs are 375lbs. 375 divided by 1122 gives you a 0.334 spring to weight ratio. So just multiply that ratio by the front weight of the new car and tada!

As far as building them goes, I've been more of a circuit racer in forza, but generally clutches and flywheels don't get you anywhere. If you've got a sport or race trans you don't really need a clutch because shift time will already be significantly lower, and you'll already be able to power shift(full throttle shift) just from that upgrade. And for the PI you save, you'll be able to add a few more HP or shave a few more pounds of weight.

I'm running a fever right now so this post might seem like jibberish....

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KraZe
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:10 pm

@skitchin - Your calculator reminds me of the Drift Tune Guide on the FM forums lol
http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/4869639.aspx
I've learned to develop my suspensions through trial and error and not with a computer, can't beat old school methods right?

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skitchin
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:18 pm

The "formulas" on that page are black magic!

PS: Even Ryosuke uses computers Wink

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Edward40Hands
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:10 pm

dont under estimate the advatage of faster revs from a lighter flywheel, it feels insignificant but its noticable on some engines for sure.

also id avoid upgrading ethir clutch or flywheel heavily and not the other, seeing as theyre two halfs of a whole mechanisim...maybe its no big deal in forza, but still.
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KraZe
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:18 pm

^In forza any clutch and flywheel upgrade is basically unnoticeable and definitely not worth installing for the PI they're worth. I did a test with Strawberry to see how these upgrades affected a stock RX-7 FC3S on the 1/4 mile, it's not 100% accurate but it's easy to see why the extra PI is better off being used on more significant upgrades like power or weight.
http://tougeunion.forumotion.com/t139-forzabusters#2208

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MiNd
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:20 pm

KraZe wrote:
^In forza any clutch and flywheel upgrade is basically unnoticeable and definitely not worth installing for the PI they're worth. I did a test with Strawberry to see how these upgrades affected a stock RX-7 FC3S on the 1/4 mile, it's not 100% accurate but it's easy to see why the extra PI is better off being used on more significant upgrades like power or weight.
http://tougeunion.forumotion.com/t139-forzabusters#2208

Some cars I think its noticable, others not so much

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Steinkrunk
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:31 pm

Also, I found this chart extremely useful when trying to find the best wheel. Saves a bunch of time and you can see which wheels are the same weight and just pick your favorite!

Forza wheels

I never really used the race clutches because I think with the manual w/clutch mode they don't make much of a difference. Because if you shift maybe 20 times in a race, and the clutch says it will take off .05 from your shift time, that would take 1 second off your time. If that were the case I'd be able to shave 2 seconds off my time easily. But it's not :-(

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Edward40Hands
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:37 pm

1/4 mile tests arent a be all end all now are they? theoreticaly faster reving will help alot more with your downshifting and even engine braking. use a race flywheel and shift at redline without letting off the accel...youll notice how much harder you bang the limiter over stock flywheel, i.e. faster revs...

you obviously wouldnt rev faster under load, not without more horses lol
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RTG SoulStealer
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:43 pm

if you are new to the touge find a car you like and are willing to drive it for a long time and i mean a long ass time. upgrade it to B class DONT TUNE IT go to the new downhill, and run it till your fingers start to bleed. once you can run a 4:50 at ease you can start to tune it. if you dont know how to tune a car you should go to a setting and set to a extreme. for example if you want to know the difference between tire psi set the psi as high as it can go, then drive your car. using common sense, Google,and your inference skills you can figure it out. do this with all the setting. lol it may take a while. once you do that find a partner that is just as fast or faster than you and race with them like all the time. by doing this you and your friend can get faster at the same time. when practicing with your friend you can drill passing techniques, and defensive driving techniques. for example you can practice hiding in your opponents blind spot (my fav one) it works best on the long strait after the first barrage of turns. to do this all you have to do is keep up with your opponent through the first section and ride to the back left or the back right of your opponent. by doing so your opponent will ether look for you using his or her right thumb stick and forget to shift, letting you take the lead or he or she may be too busy looking for you and brake late for the next turn or forget to brake at all lol. a lot of ppl fall for this simple trick and by telling you this it will probably notify a lot of ppl intern making it useless but o well lol good luck young grasshopper, wax on wax off you know the deal.

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betadood
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:52 pm

Guess I can throw in my 2 cents Razz, I was setting 4.37.4, then I switched to stock clutch and flywheel. I got a 4.37.1 so it does tend to make the run as a whole faster.In my opinion I think wasting 5 PI on about 10 pounds of weight removal is a bit much for either a clutch or a flywheel. Especially since it would seem forza does not calculate how having a better flywheel would help with the revs, not to mention that you are not exactly moving your foot to hit the clutch either.

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                                                      Old Downhill: 3:47.110 Old Uphill: 3:58.522
A class (22B): New Downhill: 4:27.633 New Uphill: 4:38.230
                                               Old Downhill: 3.41.310 Old Uphill: 3.54.605
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lBrawnyemperoRl
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:27 pm

My favourite technique is the counterattack move where you pull next to your opponent until youre inside on a tight corner like a hairpin forcing youre opponent to slow down hard and not allow him to dive into the corner cause his line is disturbed.

Its hard to get the timing right and hang right aside of the opponent but if it works theres no chance to not take the lead. It only worked few times for me so far so ill focus on that move
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:54 pm

Edward40Hands wrote:
1/4 mile tests arent a be all end all now are they? theoreticaly faster reving will help alot more with your downshifting and even engine braking. use a race flywheel and shift at redline without letting off the accel...youll notice how much harder you bang the limiter over stock flywheel, i.e. faster revs...

you obviously wouldnt rev faster under load, not without more horses lol

I was surprised too, but it seems if you are using "manual with clutch" the clutch doesn't affect times in the slightest, even at race.

The race flywheel also didn't help the car accelerate in the slightest, and once I had it removed I tended to run slightly faster in the FC. That's not how it works in real life, but Kraze and I doubted that Forza accurately calculates engine inertia, and it looks like in a quarter mile that's 100% true. There's too many variables to tell if it makes it faster on the mountain, but in my experience the answer is no, the PI is better spent on horsepower and weight reduction.

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Clutch927
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:34 am

Is it just me or do other people have specific attack modes on the touge, what I mean by that is when your racing someone depending on there skill level (how many errors they make) get that takumi eye and see an opening and go for it. Which part of the touge does this happen for you a lot. Example bukkaz and the hairpins, I've never seen anyone corner so smoothly in that car and overtake as many people as I've seen him overtake in those four turns. With me, most of my overtakes come after the hairpins right before the last section. I tune most if my cars to have maximum grip at this point in a race cause I feel that's where it gets really hairy!!!

Another thing what do you guys do when it comes to tire size in the front, I drive a RZ and I have 305's in the back and have no clue what to do with the front......help lol

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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:40 am

^ most of my attacks if the opponent is skilled happens after the hairpins. Thats where I accel with the 86 when chasing someone. And in relation to your tire width try and mach the front tire width to the rear ones
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:11 am

^ do you mind if I ask why???

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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:18 am

Its just a more balanced way of upgrading. Say if your tires are wider then the front and have more grip because of it when you go to turn a corner you may understeer because your using the maximum amount of grip that your rear tires can offer while your front tires are giving in and will start to slide. It will just make the car feel better if you have them both equal amd you wont have to be careful not to understeer
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:33 am

You awesome bukk!!!

Do you use race suspension???

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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:35 am

Bigger tire in the front = more tire gripping the road = more grip = better turn in

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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:37 am

Clutch927 wrote:
You awesome bukk!!!

Do you use race suspension???
No I use sports
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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:40 am

Interesting proposal. I always max the tire width on my cars but the Supra is one of those cars that just don't use all of the available grip in the rear because of the lack of horsepower in B class. Try decreasing the rear width 10mm at a time until you can feel the car getting loose.

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PostSubject: Re: Touge Techniques   Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:56 am

Kraze I will catch you in the supra one day. And I will be the fastest supra driver there is........only time will tell

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