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 Torque: where does it go?

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KraZe
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PostSubject: Torque: where does it go?   Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:15 am

I've been fiddling with the AE86 by using both the original 4AGE and the supercharged 4AGZE engine from the AW11 and variations in between (turbo swapping and turbo glitching too).  I managed to get some of these variations to similar weight and horsepower figures but the ONE thing that is always different between these engines is their torque output.  Here's an example:

Engine-------------4AGE-------4AGZE
Power (hp)---------172---------174
Torque (lb-ft)------147---------169
Weight (lbs)-------1875--------1893

It's been discussed before that a 1 hp gain usually costs 10 lbs in weight and vice-versa, therefore these two configurations should be almost equal in speed which I found out is TRUE after some hours of testing.

However, that doesn't explain why such a significant torque difference contributes ZERO extra speed.  If the 4AGE pumped out 174 hp as well the torque would be around 149 lb-ft which is still 20 lb-ft less than the supercharged version yet not at all slower on straightaways.

Does anyone understand why this happens?

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Miata Gen 2 - 4:31.750 (NDH) || Mazdaspeed RX8 - 4:34.041 (NDH) || Acura NSX '97 - 4:35.869 (NHC)

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Obelisk
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PostSubject: Re: Torque: where does it go?   Fri Jan 23, 2015 6:18 am

I never understood torque, but I'd say just  look at the power profile of the car to see where the torque and power peaks.

Usually with a supercharger you trade low RPM torque for top-end power and speed, so it'll accelerate better but it loses speed on the straights.
Edit: redundant, sentence above is redundant.

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Koolaid
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PostSubject: Re: Torque: where does it go?   Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:02 am

Torque is the amount of force turning the wheel Obelisk, imagine a Civic hitting VTEC which then increases the torque and increases acceleration at the same time.
Imagine that "pulling" sensation as you are WOT in a car.
and please stop talking about superchargers, you have the whole thing wrong.

By speed on straightaways do you mean acceleration or top speed kraze?
You should post photos of both benchmark and dyno sheets.
From what I'm seeing is that the 20 lb-ft difference versus 15-20 lb in weight evens them both out in acceleration.

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KraZe
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PostSubject: Re: Torque: where does it go?   Fri Jan 23, 2015 12:06 pm

I'll try to post some pics later but by speed I meant acceleration on the straights I'm always even with Shark and Beta's 86s down the main straight but even after installing a new engine with higher peak torque the acceleration rate is still the same so I wondered why. What you're saying about a 20 lb disadvantage negating a 20 lb-ft torque advantage kinda makes sense but by that logic if the 86 was 100 lbs heavier it would need 100 lb-ft of torque more to make up for it which is a HUGE engine upgrade.
On both engines I shift up around the 7k rpm mark where neither of their peak torque is but there is still a sizable gap in between them.
I'm starting too assume that 2 identical cars with the same power and weight will accelerate at the same rate regardless of any peak torque variation.

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KraZe
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PostSubject: Re: Torque: where does it go?   Fri Jan 23, 2015 2:41 pm

NEVER MIND I'm an idiot I should have noticed this sooner.  The 4AGE and the 4AGZE both develop about the same torque figures from 6-7k rpm and it's only below 5k rpm that the supercharger helps the acceleration.  Now that I've learned that I can try and think up ways to use that advantage, probably using 2nd gear in the hairpins might help me out a bit.

edit: Also learned that even if you turbo glitch an engine the car will still have the same torque characteristics of the original aspiration whether it was N/A, turbo, or supercharged.

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Miata Gen 2 - 4:31.750 (NDH) || Mazdaspeed RX8 - 4:34.041 (NDH) || Acura NSX '97 - 4:35.869 (NHC)

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Mulchy
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PostSubject: Re: Torque: where does it go?   Sat Jan 24, 2015 5:22 pm

Toque is life mayne.

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